Now that I have your attention … To build up your starter, the best thing you can do is DOUBLE refresh your starter. Back to back, without refrigerating it
Throughout the tutorials I recommend maintaining a white roller milled sourdough starter. This is because it is easy and I can predict the timing of a white starter. All white roller milled flours across the world are similar, and so this means I can be more precise for all members with timings and temperature.
Ironically to get a white starter you need to convert a wholegrain one that you have developed with organic microbe-rich flour. It might seem counter-intuitive for me to use this but but the white starter is a slow starter that peeks after 8 – 12 hours, so I can give you timings that work with a traditional working day. It means you can refresh before you go to bed and it will be at its microbial peek as you wake up in the morning. To convert, you simply change your refreshment flour and use white roller milled flour.
Most people want a set routine when it comes to refreshing starters.
For beginners I would recommend the following:
- 100g roller milled white flour
- 100g water at 23C
- 25g of sourdough starter (please discard/compost the rest, or you can use it in other formulas)
Mix together the flour, water and starter in a clean pot, and put a lid on that is not airtight. Leave for 8 hours at room temperature (22C) and it will be ready to use when it has doubled in size. You can use it for about 2-3 hours. At this point, you do two things. Make your leaven whilst it is wild and bubbly and active. Then you pop the remaining refreshed starter into the fridge unit the next time you need to use it.
This way it is stored whist the microbes are at their highest number.
Leave it any longer and it will start to sink as the gluten starts to degrade. It is best to put it back in the fridge. You need to refresh it about once a week even when you are not baking.
Once you start getting familiar with this routine you can start to tweak the water, the temperature and the timings, but to begin with please stick to this routine.
TOP TIP
For the domestic baker who wants to make amazing bread like the bakeries, refreshing once isn’t enough to build the numbers that a starter in a bakery has. To build up your starter, the best thing you can do is DOUBLE refresh your starter. Back to back, without refrigerating it. The white roller milled starter is easy to refresh because this can be done about 12 hours apart.
For example…
Timings to refresh your starter for the retarded method:
I like to refresh at 10 am and again at 10 pm two days before I bake. This will give you the best loaf.
An example if you want to bake on Sunday:
- Refresh Friday Morning at 10am
- Refresh Friday Night at 10pm
- Saturday morning make a fast leaven and then pop your starter straight back in the fridge. Continue with your recipe. Refrigerate overnight
- Sunday bake
Timings to refresh your starter for the ambient method:
Refresh the night before you want to make your leaven, and again in the morning.
An example is that if you want to bake on a Saturday:
- Refresh on Thursday Evening at 10 pm
- Refresh Friday morning at 10am
- Friday night at about 9 pm your starter is ready to use to make your slow white leaven, then pop your starter straight back in the fridge.
- Saturday mix, prove and bake
Please note: when you take your starter out of the fridge to begin your refreshment schedule don’t worry if there is a hooch on top (a grey liquid), it is a naturally occurring alcohol and it just means your starter is ready to be fed. Just stir it back in, or if it is very old (ie you have been away for some time) pour it away, and then continue to double refresh.
Hi Vanessa,
I had written about my sourdough starter not bubbling – it looks like after 3 days of refreshing it is starting to bubble this morning. Is the key to wait until it doubles rather than adhering to a schedule? Thanks! I know I have much to learn and it kind of blends together – there is so much! I am so excited about learning!
Hi Susan and yes use your starter when it has doubled in size whch is when it is at it’s peak.
Hi Vanessa – I was wondering where you got your sourdough crocks – are they antiques? I love them! Any recommendations for antique sourdough containers or crocks on size and perhaps type of pottery? I love your bowls as well! Of course – I love antiques that is why I noticed them!
Hi Susan, Christine answering here. I think Vanessa bought her larger ceramic jars from Daylesford Organic however I have had a look and they don’t seem to have anything similar at all right now. She also bought some vintage ones from France some time ago.
Our limited edition Sourdough Starter jars made for us by Pottery West, although not vintage are artisan, and will be made again at some point and will be announced in our newsletter and on social media. They also do a pot themselves but it is out of stock right now – you can sign up to be notified when back in stock. It is here https://potterywest.co.uk/shop/tallwhiteliddedjar
Sorry I cant be more helpful but I really hope you manage to find something similar.
Hi Christine
You were very helpful! Thank you!
I had an old starter in the refrigerator for about a year – I know that is horrible. I poured the stuff off the top and starting a feeding schedule 100g bread flour, 100g warm water and 25 g of starter. It has a lot of elasticity to it when I try to measure it, it smells good but it doesn’t look like it is doubling or bubbling like in your pictures. Is this starter gone or should I keep feeding it – hoping it will come back to life? Should I not feed it until it has doubled – which so far in 10-12 hours – it hasn’t. I have just taken delivery of your starter from bakery bits – should I just discard this old starter and start new – or am I doing something wrong? Thanks!
Hi Vanessa,
I am still going through the lessons but have received a white sourdough starter that needs to be refreshed. I think I saw that you feed it with white roller milled flour? I am in the US – what would that be here – bread flour? I also have some grains – would it be better to run some of them through the mill and use that? I have soft white, hard white and hard red. Maybe the simplest option is best for now until I have more knowledge!
Hi Susan, refresh with white bread flour and ideally organic flour. If you use wholemeal or stoneground the starter will peak much quicker.
Thank you so much!
Hi Vanessa,
I am new to making sourdough and I bought your book The Sourdough School. I like it a lot, it is really informative and explanatory. I have a question about my starter.
I started out with a rye starter from scratch at 100% hydration (150g stoneground rye flour, 150g water). I started this a couple of days before your book arrived – I probably wouldn’t have chosen rye for my first starter otherwise… I refreshed it daily by discarding and replenishing half. On day 7 I had a starter that doubled in size in about 4 hours and had a really nice tangy smell and taste. That’s when I switched to the maintenance schedule according to your book. So I took 25g of my starter and refreshed it with 100g rye flour and 70g water at 14C, and then… well nothing much really. My ambient temperature is 22C by day, it doesn’t drop below 20C by night. After refreshing it at 6pm according to the retarded schedule, I left the starter on the counter for 4 hours, but apart from some very light bubbling, nothing really happened. If I understand the retarded schedule correctly, it should have at least grown by half in that amount of time and I should put in in the fridge at 10pm. Am I simply being impatient? Should I allow more time on the counter before putting it in the fridge? Or will I find out tomorrow that it will have doubled in size anyway? 🙂 Sorry if these are stupid questions, and of course you have no idea what my starter looks like, but I’d like to check if I understood the instructions correctly. Thanks in advance!
Kind regards,
Sander
Hello and Sander and welcome to the club – always feel free to ask us questions. I would suggest that you look through the welcome page which starts you off with all the information you need: https://thesourdoughclub.com/the-sourdough-club/ We would also suggest starting with an ambient recipe before the retarded recipes. The leaven for a retarded loaf is a fast leaven – https://thesourdoughclub.com/sourdough-leaven/ and it won’t be as bubbly because it is younger and can manage the long fermentation time overnight. It may be helpful if you converted your rye strater to a white flour starter – just swap over the flour and then the starter coming to peak condition is more manageable. Do work your way through the tutorials.
Hi Vanessa and the team
I’m just interested to know what weighing scales you are using in this video?
Thank you.
Hello Martina – it is a bit like this one from Bakery Bits: https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/kd8000-bakery-scales.html
Ah, thank you Vanessa, but you should be resting!! Mx
Hi ix together the flour, water and starter in a clean pot, and put a lid on that is not airtight. Leave for 8 hours at room temperature (22C) and it will be ready to use when it has doubled in size.
Why do I need a Fresh starter every two weeks.
Thank you
Hi Sergute, you need to keep your starter live in the fridge and then refresh enough before you want to use it. The nutrients in the fridge get used up quite quickly.
Hi! I’ve been told to use a 1:1:1 ratio when refreshing my starter. Is this wrong?
Thanks
Hi and yes 1:1:1 is too much starter. There is much to learn about starters so do go through all the tutorials. Our ratio is 100g:100g:25g (starter).
Hi Vanessa,
I might be being very dense. But I have been going back and forth between you started and Levin videos and I am trying understand the real difference between them.
For the white flour you refreshed above it seems that you have used the same ratio of 25g starter, 100g flour, 100g water for both steps.
So am I right in thinking that essentially unless you are wanting to play around with what your putting in your levin it’s the same as a triple refreshed starter?
If this is the case and your baking/refreshing your starter quite frequently… aka refreshing morning and evening do you still need to do a levin or would you just use your starter?
Many thanks
Olwen
Hhi Olwen, in effect the answer is yes, but! If you are baking an ambient loaf then yes it is in effect a triple refreshment of the starter, but if you are baking a retarded loaf then the leaven is different – you use a wholegrain or rye flour which ferments faster and because the dough ferments for much longer overnigt in the frideg it is better to use a young leaven (2-4 hours old). Happy baking. Vx
Hi Vanessa
Before my starter arrives, I tried to read and understand the contents. I am confused Refreshing the starter.
1. After mixing the flour, water and starter ix together the flour, water and starter in a clean pot, and put a lid on that is not airtight. Leave for 8 hours at room temperature (22C) and it will be ready to use when it has doubled in size.
Where do I get starter for the next if I am using all or discard?
I really want to under stand about the starter.
where do I get the recipe for beginners ?the one we have to bake 7 times
Hi Sergute. When you mix the starter with flour and water you leave it to grow and when it has doubled in size you take 25g of this newly refreshed starter to add to another 100g water and another 100g flour and leave that for another 8 hours. You discard what is left. Then you repeat – i.e. you take 25g of this 2nd newly refreshed starter and discard what is left and add the 25g starter to 100g water and 100g flour and leave for 8 hours. This is building up the starter to peak condition. Once you have a healthy starter that doubles n size in 8 hours after using what you need to make a leaven you put the reamining starter in the fridge until you next want to use it. So say next week you refresh at least twice again. It is a cycle which is quite easy to establish. I hope this is clear – but keep asking us questions.
Hello! I can currently afford baking every or every other day. I do it for learning purposes and bake small batards/bouls at one (ca 300-400 g flour in dough). I refresh my starter from, which I build levain, every 12 hrs. It is a commitment but so far I am into it and not exhausted yet. Therefore, I keep my starter on the countertop. However, I only keep ca 45 g of the starter max. I’m kind of micro feeding. I now wonder, if I operate with such small amounts, does my starter has enough microorganisms to produce healthy yeast? Is there a reason all books call for ca 50-100 g flour/water quantities for refreshment. I just cannot stand lots of discard, even if I could afford it money-wise, I just cannot.
Hi Terje, You will get better results with the larger size which helps to maintain temperature. Also you can put in the fridge overnight to slow things down. I know people hate to discard whcih is why we offer some guidance here: https://thesourdoughclub.com/sourdough-starter-discard-leftover-starter/ Happy baking!
Hi Vanessa,
I’ve your French starter and it has been great but it tend to pick much earlier than 10-12 hours. Usually around 6-7. I use Marriages organic strong white flour, refresh at ratio 1:5:5, temperature 20 degrees.
What would you recommend to do to get it to peak in 10-12 hours?
How do I reduce/change sourness in the starter/levain?
What difference does the protein % of the flour makes to the starter? plain flour 10% protein, strong bread or Canadian flour at 12-14% protein
Thank you, Elen
Hi Elena, you could make your starter a little thicker and this means it will ferment slightly slower and peak a little later. To reduce the sourness in your starter make sure you are feeding it regularly and not letting it form a hooch, a white starter should be sweeter than a wholemeal starter. Equally, an ambient loaf will be sweeter and a retarded loaf will be more sour. The protein content doesn’t matter when it comes to feeding your starter, the more important thing is to make sure you are feeding it organic, stone ground flour – This will give your microbes the best nutritional support and it adds extra microbes via the flour, which also supports the health of the ferment. Hope this helps 🙂
Thank you!
Hi,
I’ve ordered my starter from the bakery. I took 25g and fed it with 100g water 100g flour. I have a total of 22g of a starter.
The next day:
I used 100g and kept the rest in the fridge.
So here I’m left with 125g of starter.
I want to use it again. How do I do that?
Do I need to refresh the 125g and then take 25g and add 100/100 of water and flour and discard the rest of the “mother” starter? Or do I take 25g immediately when I take it from the fridge?
I didn’t know what is the difference between starter and leaven? And when to use what ?
Hi Noor,
To feed your starter you want to do exactly what you did at first. You’ve got your 125g starter, take it out of the fridge, allow it reach room temp. Then you will discard all but 25g, then add 100g water and 100g flour. This is your feeding/refreshing regime from now on. You can find lots of tasty things to use your discarded starter for, like pancakes, sweet bakes etc.
Have a little look at the diagram on this page https://thesourdoughclub.com/how-to-refresh-a-sourdough-starter/ it might help you to visualise the process.
To learn more about levins, have a read of this page https://thesourdoughclub.com/sourdough-starter-levain-fully-explained/
Good luck!
Hi Vanessa
Can I just check, I have made a wholemeal starter and then merged across to a white starter, refreshing using the 50% out, 50% replace process for the first few times. Then, once white, I then popped it in the fridge. Am I right in thinking I can leave it in there and refresh it every week or so using the process above unless I am baking with it of course? Also can I just take it out of the fridge and refresh it or does it need to sit on the side and warm up first?
Hi Louise, most important is that when you use your starter and when you put the remaining starter back into the fridge it is at peak condition. More information can be found in this tutorial: https://thesourdoughclub.com/how-to-refresh-a-sourdough-starter/ – there is a chart that outlines the process as well as the video. Vx
Thanks for the clear info. I just started feeding twice today, I never did this… So very helpful. Can I ask a slightly of topic question? I am also throwing my own bowls and mugs and love this pot to keep my starter. Can you tell me the sizes? I was looking it up on the internet but can’t find it. Thank you soo much.
Hi Ann, the ceramic pots are 600ml.
Hello Vanessa,
I’m a bit confused about my white starter. Is the following correct:
-Refresh back to back twice a day.
-I only discard around 100g every time before refreshing my starter everyday.
– If I’m not bake every week can I put my starter in the fridge?
-How long can I leave in the fridge without feed?
– When I would like to bake again when can I feed the starter? And how long after I can make my dough?
Kind regards
Cristina Maia
In the interest of reducing the amount of pots I have to wash.
From a 200g Starter, am I ok to remove 175g of the starter and just add the flour and water into the original pot?
(Also what font is this? it’s really nice!)
HI Stephen yes you can absolutely do that. At some point just make sure you do give that original pot a good clean. I am not sure which font it is sorry! However you can download an app that will tell you – ‘the most graceful way to identify a font in the wild is with the free WhatTheFont Mobile app. Just launch the app and then snap a photo of the text wherever it appears’
Hope that works!
Best
Lucy
Hi Vanessa, I currently have two starters, a white and a wholemeal, that I created and maintain as per the guidance in your Sourdough School book. However at the start of the lockdown I was unable to get roller-milled strong white bread flour, but managed to get stoneground strong white from a local artisan mill in Bedfordshire. I had been using this to refresh the white starter, which is now very lively! I now have some roller-milled strong white and therefore last refreshed the white starter using this flour (in fact I used 75g rolled-milled white & 25g wholemeal based on the guidance in your tutorial above). My question is whether I should maintain this existing white starter or create a new one by converting some of the wholemeal starter?
Keith how many babies do you want to feed?
Starters are demanding and so you swap flour when ever you want .. it is robust and you can use whatever flour you need to ..but just keep an eye o the rate of fermentation and readiness and it will change according to the flour you use.
Happy baking Vx
Gosh, lots to absorb.
I have only ever used Spelt Wholemeal and was having trouble getting any. So purchased 25kg bag from Sharpham Park, obviously a bit gutted about now having to get white flower, from…..??. difficult at the moment. I will order your book and see if there are any wholemeal recipes ,whilst attempting to get some white flour.
Regards Gay
Hi Gay sorry for the delay with this! Have you had any luck? You can use your Spelt Wholegrain in place of the Wholegrain we use in the Classic 20% and 50% formulas. For the white flour:
Some websites are selling 1x 16kg bag of flour to each customer. Others have a queuing system, delivery slots, specific days/mornings when open:
BakeryBits who manage our shop for us are next open 3 mornings a week for orders https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/
Marriages https://flour.co.uk/ – large bags only
Shipton Mill https://www.shipton-mill.com/flour-direct-shop – need to request a delivery slot when available
FWP Matthews https://www.fwpmatthews.co.uk/store/ – looks good for small bags and opens daily at 10am
Sharpham Park https://www.sharphampark.com/ – spelt
Gilchesters https://gilchesters.com/product/ – opens most Tuesdays
They all keep stocking back up and re-opening so the only answer is to sign up to their newsletters, check each website daily and throughout the day, check their messages re opening days on their websites.
Really hope that helps? Lucy x
What does “roller milled” mean? Also what mill do you recommended to purchase for at Home use!?
Hi Katie this will explain the flour for you https://thesourdoughclub.com/an-overview-of-flour/
And here is our home mill recommendations https://www.sourdough.co.uk/mockmill-how-to-mill-your-own-flour/
Hope this helps? 🙂
Hi,
I just started watching the videos and I was wondering: I have a sourdough starter and I’ve always fed it 70%-80% white flour and 20%-30% rye flour. So for example: When I refresh I take 20 grams of the starter, add 100 grams of water, then 25 grams of rye and 75 grams of white flour. Can I convert this now to 100% white flour and just leave out the rye next time? In my experience it never bubbles quite as nice and doesn’t have the same rise but maybe I have to figure out whether I’m doing something wrong…
No Rye is just different. .. its good the play and get used to how different flours behave. You will find different timings & flavours and in the end settle of your favourite.
Hi Vanessa, could you please advise which exact flour you using to feed your French starter. Got yours and it lost this lovely sweet yoghurt smell , believe it’s because of the flour I am using- Starter working perfectly fine.
Thank you in advance
Jola
Jolanta,
yes you are right – a white flour will keep it sweeter.
So I use marriages or 00 Mulino Marino.
I always use organic, but any white 12.5 – 13% protein bread flour will be fine.
Vx
Perfect, thank you ?
Take care x
Hi Vanessa,
I’m a new Sourdough Club member, and I made my own white starter about a month ago. I’ve been feeding it white unbleached all-purpose flour, but it seems that you recommend a bread (higher protein) flour for routine feedings? Does it matter? Thank you!
Melissa
Hi Melissa, welcome to the club! Congrats on making your own starter that’s really exciting! There is so much to learn about different flours and how they can affect your starter and loaves. I recommend checking out this page to learn a bit more https://thesourdoughclub.com/how-to-refresh-a-sourdough-starter/
Good luck, Amy x
Hi
I started my sourdough starter about 3 weeks ago. It has a nice amount of bubbles has never doubled (or anything close to that) in size. Every time I refresh it it is still the same size as the time before. I have been refreshing it at least twice a day with Mullino Murino 00 Hard Flour.
Thanks.
Lara
Lara – sounds like you did not have enough microbes built up.
Go back to how to create a starter and follow this for 4/5 days and rebuild the microbes with wholegrain twice a day every day 28C
Then go back to 00
Vx
Hello,
I have a question regarding the flour for the white roller-milled starter:
– So I used a white enriched all-purpose flour for the starter, it worked very good, making bubbles and doubling in size at its peak. I am wondering how the enriched affects the starter or the bread. it’s a 8.5% protein flour from chile, very fine, the brand is Mont Blanc
Thanks 🙂
Francisco León
It is fone for refreshment but not ideal.
Not good for making the boules though.
Vx
Hi,
I have two question:
1.you use a 1: 4: 4 to refresh your starter. In general what I have seen is 1: 1: 1, I suppose it is by the force of your starter and quality of flour. it is right?
2. My flour is a white flour and not very good quality and I have an ambient temperature of 11-17 °C in the day. should I still use a 1: 4: 4 for refresh my starter?
Tks
Tania, Colombia
Tania,
There is no one way t refresh a starter.
Sometimes I use 40% hydration .. sometimes I use 110% .. it depends on what I an trying to achieve ..
Do you have a preference for flavour?
V
How do you know if your flour is Roller Milled? I have some Shipton Mill Italian Style flour but it doesn’t tell me if it is Roller milled. Many thanks
Oddly enough it is toller milled unless it says stoneground ono the pack.
Weird I know.
Thanks
Hi
I wondered if you had any advice on maintaining a starter in times of flour shortages. I certainly cannot get hold of any roller milled flour, and would be lucky to maintain enough flour to be refreshing 100g at a time plus the amounts for leaven and bread making.
Many thanks
Louise
Working on exactly that now.
Brilliant, thanks.
Double refresh question, when you go to refresh the second time do you wait until the first refresh has peaked and reached the mature point or ideally just before that?
Hi Tori,
Yes exactly that.
Vanessa
X
Hi,
I have a rye starter going for 2 weeks now. I’m refreshing it accordingly ‘how to make a starter’ section and discarding half (100g) and adding 50g water +50g flour. I was doing it twice a day once in the morning once in the evening. As I’m still waiting for flour delivery (nothing in the shops where I live) should I pop it into a fridge now and refresh few times when I’m equipped to bake or keep refreshing it like I was or start refreshing it by using 25g of the mother and 100g water and 100g flour?
So far it’s been doing well – it’s doubling the size and it’s very bubbly, it’s thick but falls of the spoon easily.
Thank you for help with my confusion.
Kasia
Hi,
I am a bit confused about the temperature of the water used for refreshing the starter. In this recipe it is 100 gr water at 23C, but in the sourdough school book it is 36C. Which one is the right temperature I should use?
I am assuming 8-10 hrs waiting time to reach the peak.
Many thanks
Berin – there is not an exact temperature.
The book was specifically to cultivate the Homofermentative bacteria.
So lower water makes it take longer and it is slightly sourer.
Hope that helps.
Vx
I’m a bit confused about the discarding the starter. Is the following correct:
– take 25g from your ‘mother’ starter which you’ve kept in the fridge
– refresh it bringing it up to about 225g of new starter
– discard 200g
– refresh the remaining 25g again with 200g of water/flour to make 225g again
– use 25g of this double refreshed starter to make the leaven
– I now have about 200g left of the double refreshed starter and about 200g roughly of the ‘mother’ still in the fridge.
Q. What do I do with both of these two starters? Does the double refreshed 200g become the new ‘mother’ and we discard the old mother?
Hi Paul,
Yes correct.
There are recipes you can use with the discard.
The new book coming has many in but check out the sweet sourdough section for more ideas.
V
That was my exact confusion too!! Thank you for articulating that so perfectly. I’ve been refreshing my ‘mother’, but it seems I shouldn’t keep the old mother? Is that the grandmother? I suppose it just builds up too fat of you keep the same one and refresh every week. I feel sort of sad discarding the original mother, I’ve grown attached to it! It’s all a bit confusing, but my bread is turning out great, nevertheless!
Hi Anjoli yes people do find it hard to discard sometimes but once you get used to it it becomes perfectly normal. You can either use the discard in other recipes See Using Up Leftover Starter https://thesourdoughclub.com/category/formulas-recipes/leftover-starter-recipes/ or in some Sweet Sourdough recipes. Or you can compost it.
Every time we refresh we discard the leftover – this keeps the levels of microbes up, otherwise they would decline. I tend to wait until my most recent refreshment has performed well, then discard the oldest starter i have leftover and repeat each time. Think of your newest starter as the ‘Mother’ 🙂 great that your bread is turning out well 🙂
Thank you! That certainly helps to clarify things x
What if it’s stayed longer like few days? And have strong smell? Can I still use it?
eek … ok so if it is smelling butyric .. .Like cheese, it is a bit hard to recover. are you keeping it in the fridge between refreshments?
Vanessa
Can I just be clear about a second refreshment. Do you take 25g of the first refreshment and add 100g of flour and water or do you add another 100g of flour and water to the first refreshment mixture?
Thanks
As I understand it, you take 25g of the first refreshment mixture.
Sorry for half comment. The room temperature here is Around 33 degrees
use colder water Anita x